Friday, June 27, 2008

Justifying Iraq

Someone tries to justify the Iraq war, read my last post because it ties in with this one:

What's happening in Darfur now isn't much different to what happened in Iraq (to the Kurds as one example) pre-invasion. If the USA invaded Sudan to stop this, we'd have the same situation as we have in Iraq now and people would be whining just as much.

I 100% disagree with that, besides the Janjaweed who are in cohoots with the government, the people would love us.

In Iraq, 10,000 people weren't being killed every month.
People had power, water, and all the necessities. It was no where near as bad as Sudan.
IRAQ wasn't even considered a 3rd world country because their GDP was very high, thanks to their oil and other exports.


Iraq is nothing like the Sudan.

We had literally no reason to invade Iraq, all reasons we had were cooked up by Bush and Blair and It turned into a Disaster.
No where near as many people were dying as in the Sudan.


If we were to invade and create a new government, the Janjaweed would attack back, so all we'd need to do would be to set up a strong perimeter.
AS long as that perimeter holds, we're good, it would take a lot of men, and probably a long time, but it would be worth it.
We wouldn't have civilians attack us, as we saw in Iraq.


Again unlike Iraq, where things are still NOT anywhere near the quality of pre war.
People still don't have water and power in lots of areas and the rate of civilian deaths is unbelievable.

Iraq is not Sudan, and i can't compare the two, not on any level.
You can blame the Iraq disaster on Bush and Blairs unneeded war, and destabilization of the country.
Their ignorant reply:

Sounds like you read/watch/listen to very biased left-wing media Smiley

Try reading up on the Al-Anfal Campaign, genocide against the Kurds in Iraq. Tens of thousands were slaughtered by Saddam for no reason other than being Kurds.

* destroyed about 4,000 villages in Iraqi Kurdistan [4]
* destroyed 1,754 schools, 270 hospitals, 2,450 mosques, 27 churches[5]
* wiped out around 90% of Kurdish villages in targeted areas.[6]

We didn't finish the job properly in the Gulf war when we should have unfortunately, then the media eye was lost and people forgot and no longer cared about what was continuing in Iraq. No different to us going into Sudan now, stopping this for a short time and then forgetting about it while it slowly continues out of the eye of the media, then going back in 10 years or so later and finishing the job.

The Janjaweed are civilians with guns. The people fighting in Iraq are civilians with guns. I don't see a difference.

"so all we'd need to do would be to set up a strong perimeter."

Yeah right, you obviously underestimate these people. This is exactly what we thought we needed to do in Iraq and it failed for the same reasons it'd fail in Sudan.

My reply:

You want to know why we lost in Iraq?

It's because we killed innocent women and children.
We also had no reason to go to war, all have been proven false.
Liberators? WE went for WMD's... which were non existent:

But, with all you people who listen to the Media Wink, rather than do independent research, i present my evidence:
(A pdf entitled Mortality Iraq.
I give anyone here full permission to spread this file if they like, the only thing they may not do is sell it, which was a limitation i'm put to as well.)

Findings The risk of death was estimated to be 2·5-fold (95% CI 1·6–4·2) higher after the invasion when compared
with the preinvasion period. Two-thirds of all violent deaths were reported in one cluster in the city of Falluja. If we
exclude the Falluja data, the risk of death is 1·5-fold (1·1–2·3) higher after the invasion. We estimate that
98 000 more deaths than expected (8000–194 000) happened after the invasion outside of Falluja and far more if the
outlier Falluja cluster is included.

You had a 95% chance of dieing after Iraq war, than before it? What liberation is that?
We killed TEN's of THOUSANDS of innocent people!!!

Do you really think they would say, great job!
They were better off with Sadam, who killed, but no where near what we did.

Most individuals reportedly killed by coalition forces were women and children. The risk of death from violence in
the period after the invasion was 58 times higher (95% CI 8·1–419) than in the period before the war.

More women and children were killed than members of Al Qaeda.... some precision bombing eh?

Interpretation Making conservative assumptions, we think that about 100 000 excess deaths, or more have happened
since the 2003 invasion of Iraq. Violence accounted for most of the excess deaths and air strikes from coalition forces
accounted for most violent deaths.

Study faults US health effort in Iraq, Afghanistan By Will Dunham
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The United States has botched efforts to improve public health Iraq and Afghanistan, missing a chance to gain support in those countries, an independent report released on Wednesday said.

U.S. reconstruction efforts in Iraq following the 2003 invasion failed to maintain and improve basic sanitation and provide safe drinking water in heavily populated areas, the RAND Corp. report stated.

About 40 percent of Baghdad's water and sanitation network has been damaged since the U.S. invasion, and efforts to rebuild the crumbling and aging system have moved too slowly amid security problems and looting, the report stated.

Researchers unfavorably compared health reconstruction in Iraq and Afghanistan to post-World War Two efforts in Japan and Germany. However, while those countries remained calm under foreign occupation, violence in Iraq and instability in Afghanistan have hindered reconstruction projects.

There was no reason for war, not a single one, all are botched, and we did nothing but hurt the Iraqi people.
And you wonder why there are insurgents?


AS you can see from all that i've provided you, Sudan and Iraq are nothing alike, we have a clear reason for war.
10,000 people are dying every month.
The only insurgents who would come after us would be the Janjaweed
And once governemnt support of the janjaweed was stripped, by the U.S, they would need to find funding elsewhere and would shrivel up slowly.

The civilians would side with us.
If you don't believe me, go look at pictures of U.N stations in the Sudan.
Their lives couldn't possibly get worse.


Best part of all this, our government heads, bush and blair, lied to us to get in order to initiate the war:

The Government's case for going to war in Iraq has been torn apart by the publication of previously suppressed evidence that Tony Blair lied over Saddam Hussein's weapons of mass destruction.

A devastating attack on Mr Blair's justification for military action by Carne Ross, Britain's key negotiator at the UN, has been kept under wraps until now because he was threatened with being charged with breaching the Official Secrets Act.

In the testimony revealed today Mr Ross, 40, who helped negotiate several UN security resolutions on Iraq, makes it clear that Mr Blair must have known Saddam Hussein possessed no weapons of mass destruction. He said that during his posting to the UN, "at no time did HMG [Her Majesty's Government] assess that Iraq's WMD (or any other capability) posed a threat to the UK or its interests."

Mr Ross revealed it was a commonly held view among British officials dealing with Iraq that any threat by Saddam Hussein had been "effectively contained".

He also reveals that British officials warned US diplomats that bringing down the Iraqi dictator would lead to the chaos the world has since witnessed. "I remember on several occasions the UK team stating this view in terms during our discussions with the US (who agreed)," he said.

"At the same time, we would frequently argue when the US raised the subject, that 'regime change' was inadvisable, primarily on the grounds that Iraq would collapse into chaos."

That's only a small snipit, the title of the article is, Diplomat's suppressed document lays bare the lies behind Iraq war.
Please read it all if you have time.

Don't trust the media, Ruport murdock basically owns most of it, Msnbc is owned by Microsoft, hence the MS, and CNN is owned by Time Warner.
Look at their track record:

GENERAL ELECTRIC --(donated 1.1 million to GW Bush for his 2000 election campaign)

Television Holdings:
* NBC: includes 13 stations, 28% of US households.
* NBC Network News: The Today Show, Nightly News with Tom Brokaw, Meet the Press, Dateline NBC, NBC News at Sunrise.
* CNBC business television; MSNBC 24-hour cable and Internet news service (co-owned by NBC and Microsoft); Court TV (co-owned with Time Warner), Bravo (50%), A&E (25%), History Channel (25%).
The "MS" in MSNBC
means microsoft
The same Microsoft that donated 2.4 million to get GW bush elected.

DISNEY / ABC / CAP (donated 640 thousand to GW's 2000 campaign)
Television Holdings:
* ABC: includes 10 stations, 24% of US households.
* ABC Network News: Prime Time Live, Nightline, 20/20, Good Morning America.
* ESPN, Lifetime Television (50%), as well as minority holdings in A&E, History Channel and E!
* Disney Channel/Disney Television, Touchtone Television.

TIME-WARNER TBS - AOL (donated 1.6 million to GW's 2000 campaign)
America Online (AOL) acquired Time Warner–the largest merger in corporate history.
Television Holdings:
* CNN, HBO, Cinemax, TBS Superstation, Turner Network Television, Turner Classic Movies, Warner Brothers Television, Cartoon Network, Sega Channel, TNT, Comedy Central (50%), E! (49%), Court TV (50%).
* Largest owner of cable systems in the US with an estimated 13 million subscribers.

NEWS CORPORATION LTD. / FOX NETWORKS (Rupert Murdoch) (donations see bottom note)
Television Holdings:
* Fox Television: includes 22 stations, 50% of US households.
* Rupert Murdoch: Board of Directors, Philip Morris (USA).
*(Phillip Morris donated 2.9 million to George W Bush in 2000)*

They all have biased views, get the facts and get them from independent trusted organizations.
I mainly use the BBC and the AP, although the AP has a bias at times, so i always back it up with other articles.

IF this doesn't convince you the war was wrong in IRAQ, nothing will, and you will have not been open minded.
Again, as you can see, Sudan is 180 degrees different than Iraq.
And again, Do not listen to the media, Don't let them spoon feed you garbage.
After such a long and concise post a lot of agreement grows in the thread, but someone mentions that Sudan would be better off with no military intervention, i firmly disagree and say:

Do you really feel, Sudan will be better off, without U.S intervention.

Let's check those stats again, 10,000 people killed every month.

400,000 total at this point.
That's 4 times the Iraq War.
Some things to consider

Pre war Iraq for the most part Has:

  • Running water
  • Electricity
  • Plumbing
  • Stability
  • A Strong GDP
  • Safety for most civilians
  • No internal civil war

Pre war Iraq doesn't have:

  • 10,000 deaths per month
  • Overall Sad citizens

Pre war Sudan for the most part Does not have:
  • Running water
  • Electricity
  • Plumbing
  • Stability
  • A Strong GDP(It's a poor 3rd world country)
  • Safety for most civilians

Pre war Sudan Does have

  • Civil war
  • Government Power struggle
  • 10,000 innocents dead every month
  • Overall sad citizens


Tell me please
Tell me... someone....

That the Sudan can get worse.
The U.S WILL NOT HAVE 10,000 deaths EVERY MONTH!!!

Think about it, if the U.S went in, it would stop the killing for the most part.

And you know why there were insurgents in Iraq, BECAUSE we weren't fighting for the people, but for WMD'S which didn't turn up, and caused 100,000 IRAQI deaths.

BUT if we fight for the Sudan, we will literally stop all killings by the Janjaweed, and help stem the tide of the Genocide.

NO ONE has taken a look at the refugee camps so let me give you a refresher on how it looks over there!!!



How in the world do you get the two mixed up?

One is a rich, prosperous nation.

The other is a 3rd world country with a civil war destroying 10,000 people a month.
That's about 357 Deaths on average each day, or 2,500 a week.

I knew people would come here and try and put the two countries together, but they are nothing alike.
Sudan is not stable, like Iraq was, and people weren't being killed left and right as we see in Sudan.

I hope you understand my point, and why we need to stop the Genocide.
It's not Yankee imperialism, we have nothing to gain from going to the Sudan.
That's why we're probably not going.
Because there is not much there for us, unlike Iraq, that had Oil, and gave us a Base in the Middle east besides Israel and quwait.
Our relations are still shaky with turkey.

We must stop this genocide, it will not end like Iraq, the people will side with us, and there will not be more than 10,000 deaths a month.
Response to people who say that the kurds being murdered is a good reason to go to war with iraq:

You were saying:

Hey sadam killed the Kurds
How dare you say that's not a good reason for war. Cursing

I said....
Guess what.
It's not a good reason for war.[insert long post here with all evidence]
Thank you for not replying to [long post here with all evidence]
Thank you for not reading all of [long post here with all evidence]
Your sentiments will be met equally.

Sudan is a good reason for war.[insert economic post here and 10,000 dead each month]
[insert pre war conditions of Sudan]
[insert witty joke about how Sudan can't get any worse]

Pre war Sudan... is bad... really bad... how in the world.. could it get worse?

You can use the information i provided to make informative decisions about the Sudan's future.
Or you can continue to say, Sudan=Iraq, with zero facts and evidence.

Oh and your kurdish deaths, again, not a good reason for war with Iraq, that horse has been beaten to death.

Someone else comes back to the point where they thinking going to war to protect Sudan would be just as bad and it's better not to help the Sudan, horrible comments like that prompted me to re reply, read their comments in quotes first and then my response:

But the answer is not "US military to the rescue" . The answer is not another war .

Another war against some country that can`t defend it`s self . Stop the desaster curently going on there and start another one . Cause yet another increase in world wide extremism and anti-american feelings .

The only way to stop this kind of things imho is to educate people and change the way they relate to eachother . Not by war!!

Your sentiments, as i read them were:
Don't have a war, your going to start another problem.

I ask for proof where we helped a country like Sudan, and it collapsed?
Where a civil war was going on, we stopped it, and the people fought us to death?
When did we ever go through that?

Germany anyone? That was a success. Japan? Yes success as well. Poland? Yes we did well there too.
No civil wars there, but we had wars with them, and they are successes today thanks to U.S intervention.
We owe japan more money than every other nation, but china.
I hate to mention this, but Quwait owes us a bit too Wink


I like how you said, education is the key.

Long term key yes, short term no.
Education takes Decades, it could take a Century before the people are all getting food and water and have time for eduction.
Also you can't have education without your Needs, i refer to evidence of that thanks to Maslow:

Remember the 5 steps to Human Actualization
Also known as Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs:

Education is subservient to food, shelter, water, and safety.

Right now... They have very little food, water, shelter, and no safety.
Education is not the key, education comes when Safety, water, food, and shelter have been provided.

You need to fill up your NEEDS(safety, food, shelter, water) before you can have your wants(education).


So i ask you, i plead with you my friend....
What do you want us to do, you are the head of any government you want, be it the U.S if you so wish.
What should be done?

Education? Impossible, as I've already mentioned.
What would you propose?
HOW would you bring stability?

I now yield to you. I'd like to hear your idea, if you have one, about how to stabilize the region without military intervention.
For me, i say, if at any time there was a need for war... this is the time.

~~Phoenix (my fingers are dying... lol ) Cheesy


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